The economy sucks right now. It just does.
Arguments for not giving money to the local church, ministries, or charities are easy to find.
The church of which I am a pastor has approximately 600 people in attendance on average, 400 of which are adults.
Our approximate giving each week is around $5,000. If we are to divide this number by the number of adults…we’re looking at $12.50 from each person each week.
We currently do not own the building we are in. We rent it from another church that has moved into a larger, newer facility.
Our church currently has 4 total full-time staff people which averages out to 150 people per staff member. The average in the United States is 75 people per staff member of a church.
Each week, we are scraping by and we’ve come up with some seriously creative ways to keep things running. God has provided for our needs in incredible ways. Our desire would be to own the building we are in, so that we don’t have the fear of “homelessness” (although admittedly…we are almost overly-trusting) and so many limitations we are currently experiencing…such as limited use of the building.
As a pastor, I’ve heard a wide-variety of thoughts and opinions regarding giving to the local church. Personally, my wife and I have given more than 10% of our overall income to the local church for more than 5 years now. It’s rough honestly. I’d much rather have that money in my pocket, but I also recognize it was never mine in the first place.
One of the hardest parts of being in ministry is knowing the calling that God has placed on us. We know that God has called us to do incredible things in our city, many of which cost money. This gets sketchy because we know that God will provide us with what we need, but we don’t know how much of that is dependent upon the obedience of his people.
God doesn’t need our money to do things. He just doesn’t.
That doesn’t mean we are off the hook though…especially since money is the number one contender for our hearts.
Thoughts??
Prayer – I could leave it at that but I want to tell you about my church.
Everything we do is bathed in prayer – from repairing the roof to mission trips to new buildings and everything in between.
5 years ago, my church was running 150-200 in attendance & we had 100k in debt. We prayed and felt lead to build a new 2 million dollar building. Today we owe about 700k on the building and we are on track to pay it off 20 years early.
In this “consumer” world its easy to loose sight of what really matters. Do a sermon on the biblical principle of tithing and the fact that its not “your” money, its Gods. My preacher reminds us of this occasionally. We are a small, slowly but steadily growing church with a budget of about $9k each week. Even in the “down economy” our budget is growing – 144 people have joined the church over the last 5 years, attendance runs over 300 a week now I believe. We are an economically diverse congregation, a lot of us struggle to make ends meet.
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Hi Pastor Ryan. I’m new to your site, thanks to The Pioneer Woman, and I really love what you do here. This topic struck a chord with me. I’ve tried to be a fairly generous giver for much of the past 30 years. Tithes and giving to other needy organizations has been something we always tried to do, as well as volunteering our time to organizations that my kids were associated with, just so I could keep a handle on them. But you’re right…times are tough for everybody, even me. Life circumstances change (or rather I think they go through cycles), but this is something most people haven’t seen since the depression. It’s downright scary. Thus, I think all giving is down. But God says we should tithe and give of ourselves, and our efforts will be rewarded and that’s something we have to believe, because God says it’s so. While it may hurt, we must continue to be good stewards of the things that we need to do. I know I’ve had to cut out some traveling and other pleasurable things in order to continue to give, but I feel blessed that I can still do it.
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God’s words says that he will provide for our needs. His scripture also talks about how the animals do not toil about where their next meal is coming from. His word also talks about giving time and effort in helping women, children and the old.
I believe man has misinterpreted about tithing and all the churches [corporate church (in its box)] is pressuring people to give their money to the “church”.
Ryan, you’re right when you say that just doesn’t need our money. The human race has gotten so far out of alignment that money is the center of life. Our center of life is supposed to be “GOD”. God’s words also talks about the love of money! We all know about that.
Ok, if you have any questions or want to talk to me more you can contact me individually. You have me on twitter & FB.
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I think so many don’t understand tithing, giving and the reasons for it. I too don’t see the money as mine to begin with. I believe that you can’t ask for your territory to be expanded without giving. Being faithful with little shows you will be faithful with much. It breaks my heart that pastors all over are going without paychecks, losing benefits and even their jobs. I guess it makes you realize how many are just riding the pew. I wonder if they realize it means missionaries will not receive their monthly gift. I wonder if they realize their pastors are cleaning toilets because they can’t afford the janitors anymore. I wonder how they justify this behavior in their minds. But then again, I think many pastors are afraid to preach on giving and therefore people don’t know. Many who attend church are not necessarily followers of Jesus so we can’t assume they understand what the Bible says about giving.
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Our church started out with fifteen people meeting in a conference room at a hotel. Then we started renting, like your church, from a local church that had built a newer, bigger, facility.
We built up our membership and started saving money. Within two years we were in our own building, where we all used to attend church many years ago. We bought the building five years ago. Our average attendance is about two hundred a week. We just made our final payment to our mortgage back in October, just before we were going to have to start paying interest on our loan.
I agree that sermons about the joy and necessity of tithing are important. We also had contest within the church to see how quickly we could pay off our mortgage.
I feel that my money is not my money. The first “bill” I pay every paycheck is to God. And no matter how down to the wire we are with our budget, tithes always get paid. And God always blesses us.
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Trusting the Lord to provide for our needs when we give to others/church is always hard. But since Jesus gave everything for me, how can I do any less for him? To date, I’ve never gone hungry, been evicted from my house, went without lights or heat or air or any other basic need because I have given that little bit of extra money to our local church as a tithe (we too give over 10% of our income regularly). God just takes care of us when we are faithful in our obedience to him. For us, giving is a GET TO, not a GOT TO.
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I feel your frustration. I wish everyone understood tithing more. I get frustrated at my church too when I see giving isn’t at the level it should be. Unless you have lots of unemployed people at your church, giving shouldn’t be down. It’s tough.
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I agree, it is very difficult to give back, and worse when you KNOW you can afford it and still don’t do it. For me, its laziness. I forget my checkbook, and say “I’ll put extra in next week”, but never do. There have been periods when we’ve given generously and consistently, and have been rewarded for doing so. Not the case lately, which is my own fault.
I cant think of a single (legitimate) reason not to give to GOD, but I also can’t think of a single thing that I deserve from GOD – who has given me everything.
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I’m not really sure how I feel about tithing. Sometimes I feel like it is one of those “rules and regulations” from the old testament that gets pounded into our heads. If being a believer is all about having a relationship with God (and no longer about the rules), then I feel like giving may really be different for each person and the 10% (that we brought from the Old Testament) shouldn’t necessarily be the standard anymore, but rather that we give what we can from a thankful, joyful heart because we love God…not because we’re “suppose” to.
Does that make any sense?
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my thoughts? yeah, freaking GIVE, people. it’s ridiculous to think that we, the richest country in the world, can’t afford to tithe.
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I’m not a church person, wasn’t raised with it, wasn’t raised around it so take this with the grain of salt that it’s worth (just so you have at least 1 person to screw your curve). There are 2 things that make me not like religion (yes, I used the word religion in it’s widest sense) #1. It’s a business and #2 I have yet to find one that doesn’t breed/preach some sort of hate or distrust. I won’t bother with the second one right now, just the first. It has to be a business, there’s just no way around it. Don’t get me started on the Catholic ‘church’ because there’s just no winning that battle. But really, once you factor in the money/business to any given religion you start losing the religion. Ah the battles that could be won if only given the money right?
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I think it all comes down to obedience. Society today doesn’t put any importance on being obedient to God, and you hit the nail right on the head when you said, it was never mine to begin with. That’s why I love to read your blog. You challenge me to be accountable.
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Times ARE hard, and our family is feeling it. With a recent change in health insurance, my husband’s paycheck has really taken a hit, and this week, we were tempted to reduce our tithe … but we held firm. We know from experience that giving generously and with a joyful heart, even when it’s hard, is worth it. And giving less, or stopping the tithe altogether, doesn’t solve problems.
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Having worked in an charitable educational foundation for many years now, I do know that people only give, and tend to give more, when they are ASKED to give. I suppose you don’t think of yourself as a fundraiser but it needs to be one aspect of your work if your church and the mission you’ve been called to deliver are to survive this downturn. ASK for what you need but also explain in brief simple terms, why you are ASKING.
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My husband and I were both taught tithing growing up, and we’ve always given 10% as well as infrequent additional gifts (good will offerings?). That said, it hasn’t always been to the church we attend. Previously we didn’t agree with the way in which the church board chose to spend the funds, so we gave our 10% to a mission church our friend pastors. When we moved, we kept giving to that church even though we settled in a new one, giving the new church time to show us that they’d spend it wisely. We believe that giving our money (or God’s money) back to God doesn’t necessarily require it be to the church we attend; we support the worldwide Church. However, we’re not completely comfortable with that, so it may change as salary goes up in the new job and 10% equals a larger bottom line. We’d love to give more, but right now we’re just making the bills after tithing…
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I’m in the UK and it’s not the norm, though it is being talked about. I just worked out that 10% of my monthly salary is exactly my disposable income each month but I do give roughly 10% of that. I also give my time, I work with kids in the church. So I feel that I do contribute. Interestingly, my mother didn’t used to give at all, when she was at church a couple of times a week doing stuff for them. When that stopped, she started to give more. Maybe that’s the thing, it’s not just about money, sometimes you give what you can, in terms of time, energy etc, sometimes money. However, we just spent a whole heap of money on our church building, and most of it we didn’t need to spend, and that made me mad, as we are now in debt for pretty seating…it didn’t seem like a Christian use of the money (or the debt) to me.
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That’s a great question. I think it’s a test of faith. Do we really believe in God’s promises? When He says He will open the windows of heaven on our behalf, do we take Him at His word? In past years when I looked at our budget and saw how much that 10% is and what we could do with it, I will admit I have thought twice. But the promises in Malachi 3 have been the rocks upon which I have relied, and I have never been let down. I don’t think (J.J. doctrine now…) that it necessarily means that blessings will always be monetary. My family enjoys good health, we have faithful children, and numerous additional blessings I could spend pages on. For my wife and I we understand that EVERYTHING we have been given comes from God and if He is only asking for 10% back (speaking monetarily) we are getting a great deal. This does mean we go without some of the things our friends have that we would like to have, this also means that we have to make the 90% go further but we do it willingly. Please see the parable of the talents for more on that.
Ashleigh- by way of clarification- 10% wasn’t brought from the OT, the word tithe actually means one-tenth part of something.
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My mom just started her own church in the last few years and even though its a lot smaller, she still has the same issues. And being the minister she ends up putting a lot of her salary right back into it. It stinks! But its motivated us to organize some fundraisers and other things to get the community more involved and raise money.
This one is easy, they have a bi-annual garage sale where members of the church bring *their* garage sale stuff and the money *all* goes to the church. My youth group did this when I was younger and we raised a LOT of money. It took us to a lot of national conferences
(You don’t put prices on things, just ask for a donation. You’ll be surprised at how much people are willing to donate!!)
I have other money raising things I can share with you too but… email me if you want? I don’t want to sound too “pitchy” on your blog >.<
I used to think the sucky economy was teaching me to be more frugal. Now that I have *that* mastered I realize I need to learn about giving more to those around me. Thanks for posting this.
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Our family tithes 10% of our gross income. It’s hard, at times, to see that money go since my husband makes very little to begin with, but was it really ours in the first place? God provides us with the roof over our heads, clothes on our back, and food on the table through my husband’s job. We don’t *have* to go to the movies or order pizza. We’ve found that when we forget or choose not to tithe, we have a harder time making ends meet. I think it’s because we didn’t get our minds and heart in the right place regarding money for that week.
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I think this is such a touchy topic for Christians and a tool of Satan to divide the body of Christ. When we got married, my husband and I made the commitment to give 10% of our income to tithe as instructed in the Bible, and an additional amount to a new building fund for our church. And with the economy we are in, we are no longer able to pay all our bills each month… but we always give our first fruits to God. Its all his money, and believe me, he is aware of our financial situation (I bring it up to Him in prayer constantly). Sometimes I feel like we are now paying for our arrogant and extravagant lifestyle before. God doesn’t always choose to shield us from the consequences of our poor choices. But both my husband and I agree, that God blesses those who do his commands, if not on earth, in heaven. So just shut up and give already! Its not your money, its God’s. period. Its ok to cut your lifestyle so others can hear the gospel and receive eternal life – that is so much more important that what brand of clothes I wear or if my car is 10 years old.
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Like a lot of other people I don’t see that first 10% as mine – it might go up or down depending on income but it’s not mine in the first place. I also try to give time and money to other organizations (religious and secular) whose work I believe in. I’ve been blessed with a stable income and job.
Someone once asked me why I tithed and after a spirited discussion he asked “You work hard for your money why should God get any of it?”. Since biblical references weren’t going to work I simply pointed out that God works hard on me too. Tithing also reminds me that money is not the most important thing in my life.
I wonder about churches that spend money in ways that bother members. Are you not getting involved? Or is your voice being ignored? If you have a moral objection to the way your church is spending money is simply not giving going to make a difference?
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I find this posting really interesting. I’ve been thinking about the amount we tithe (not nearly enough). We’re a medium sized Catholic church with about 500 families; our income is the same amount as your church. I understand it’s not MY money but 10% is a lot! We save, watch every cent by coupon clipping and such, but still don’t seem to have that amount of money to give each week. We’re blessed with a healthy income and I am more than willing to give to missions, church programs, charity, food kitchens, and my time, but to part with that much money a month is something I can’t get my husband to agree to. I know it’s our selfish nature as humans and the importance we place on money (as well as being neurotic about saving). A church needs to be able to pay heating/cooling, electric, gas, water, etc. bills in addition to the very small compensation our church leadership receives, programs, missions, etc. It’s all worth it but one has to constantly keep themselves in check as it is easy to lose sight of where those dollars are going. I continue to pray about this and I look forward to reading more responses that will help move hearts to give more financially.
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When my family’s church would not allow me to be my cousin’s godmother because they did not have an “official” record of my giving, I was done with tithing. My money now goes to other local charities.
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I’m so grateful I dropped by here today. It was a totally random move, but I believe a divinely ordained one! I’m a FIRM believer in tithing — always have been, always will be. At one point in my life, my husband and I paid tithe on what we wanted to make, not what we actually made. It really works folks; I’ve seen it happen.
I’ve never struggled with paying tithe. But now, I’m in a major bind financially. In a way I’ve not been in many years. I keep hearing the Lord telling me, “wait”. I keep telling people “I trust Him” and “He will provide”. I just had a very disappointing phone call and frankly am growing quite weary. Then I see this post. I feel like He (God) is telling me, “Just hang on for a bit longer”. You can NEVER outgive God — this I know. The waiting is the hard part. But wait I shall, and I know, He won’t let me down.
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Agreed. Funny you should write this today of all days. The day I get paid, checked my bank to see how the funds are looking, write a rent check, and think “Wow, I’ve been good lately. There’s a lot to spare in there!” I admit I’m not the most faithful and consistent tither, but Sunday I’ll put dropping a check offering plate. Thank you for the encouraging words. It’s hard (or easy) to forget that really, it all belongs to God and through your faithfulness He will greatly bless those who obey and follow Him.
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Hi Ryan,
I found your blog from Pioneer Woman’s. I very much enjoy your heart for God and your real life attitude about your faith. It challenges and encourages me.
My church teaches a 10/10/80 lifestyle. Give 10% save 10% and keep the rest. I think that is a good teaching. But one place it misses the mark, and I think most do is what giving/tithing actually is. It is an act of worship.
I’ve never heard a sermon preached on this aspect of giving. Most pastors are so nervous of preaching on giving, not wanting to give the impression that church is “only after your money” that they miss this very valuable lesson. When we are worshipping God in this way our giving is “cheerful” and not a burden. I experience more joy in giving (really joy like I can’t with for the offering basket!) when I view it as another way to worship and trust God than out of a sense of “guilt” that I’m keeping all to myself.
Congratulations on the new little one coming tonight. What an awesome privilege.
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Our church had a message about tithing a few months ago. It was very inspiring…did you know that John D. Rockefeller attributed his success to Gods 10-10-80 rule. Ten percent to God. Ten percent to savings. Eighty percent to live on.
Malachi 3:10,11
…Test me in this,”says the Lord Almighty,”and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the Lord Almighty.(NIV)
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As a Presbyterian, our church’s finances are open to all members. Our church has also suffered financially – we have had to learn to make do with far less. We’ve also lost many of our largest contributors – to death, and to moving away. So far every time we’ve told our congregation that our budget is in the red, they’ve upped their giving so that we could make the budget. However, our best giving comes from specific projects – our annual youth mission trip, our latest endeavor to create a community garden, even our plea for capital improvement on a dangerously run down parking lot.
As for my thoughts, at every service we are reminded that the gifts we receive come from God, and we are encouraged to “return to God the blessings he has given us.” Personally I have found that the more I give to God’s work, the more I am blessed personnaly. For example, in this lousy economy my husband and I decided to increase our giving. The result has been a significant business opportunity for him, and a promotion and a raise for me – proof that God most certainly makes sure you have the blessings to return to him!
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I know as a Children’s Ministry leader that it is not just as simple as cash…as school shopping is approaching I find that many of our parents think to pick up some extra paper, crayons, pencils, etc and bring them into the church for the various classes. I know that many people feel so strapped right now but must remember that little things like this go a long way to helping. Also remember that the gift of time and involvement are simply priceless when it comes to leading our children to God…Kim
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I guess after growing up in the church and watching my parents struggle to tithe, I have a hard time expecting anyone to set aside their income in good times or in bad. And here’s the catch: my father was the pastor, and was expected to tithe. Since tithing is not anonymous (because it is tax deductible), on any given week my family would go without because it was basically career suicide to not give what the treasurer knew was 10% of not only my father’s salary, but my mother’s as well. I think it’s more important to pray, and then give what you feel comfortable giving. But never underestimate the value of volunteerism. Volunteers can SAVE the church money. And sometimes your God-given talents can bring an even greater blessing than your money.
Are you good with kids? Volunteer for VBS or to babysit during Bible studies. Love to clean? Save the church housekeeping fees by volunteering to be on a cleaning rotation. Got a great garden? Donate some of what you grow to meal programs. And there’s so much more that can be done. Mow the lawn. Mend choir robes. Organize fundraiser and community programs. Donate office supplies after picking them up at the clearance sales in October.
I guess my biggest thought is the church should aim for people’s hearts first, and not their wallets. New members might get more out of giving their time and talent than out of their pocketbooks.
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Ah if only people understood the covenant blessing attached to the tithe, they would gladly give it cheerfully, with the expectation God intended us to have. It is the connection that opens the door (windows) to allow God to pour out those blessings (and yes, it is also in the New Testament). Tithing is what we do to show our trust to God as our Source. Tithing (or lack thereof) will also show you your own heart toward money. It is one of the #1 most important things we should be doing in the times we are living in. He is a loving Father, longing to be your Source for everything good He has planned for you. Once hubby and I began to be faithful tithers, everything turned around financially for us. There is NO WAY I will not tithe. I’ve lived the “before tithing” life and the “after tithing” life and trust me when I say, God has been, and will continue to be, good to our family!
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This is of course a tough thing to discuss. You never want to sound like you’re bragging.
Anyone who reads my blog will see I use coupons to get amazing deals on anything I can. I donate that stuff to homeless shelters, people in need at my church, animal shelters, prison ministries, food pantries, etc. I LOVE helping others, and also feeding my husband and I on as little as possible.
We also tithe and our denomination has a missions fund above and beyond our tithe that we have pledged to. We both would never dream of cutting our tithe. Granted we haven’t lost our jobs, but we do make it a priority as it should be. However, another area of debate is do you tithe on your gross or net income? That’s always something to ponder. Your thoughts, as a pastor, would be an interesting insight.
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We tithe on a monthly basis on our net income, plus extra that goes to missionaries, para-church orgs, etc. It’s gone down in the past few months because I lost my job. In one (very small) church we were at, the departure of three faithfully tithing families forced the pastor to take on a full-time job in addition to his ministry responsibilities. This is always going to be a problem for churches, and it’s that weird “we’re operating on faith”/”we need to pay our pastor(s)” tension that never goes away. I think tithing is absolutely part of our responsibilities as Christians, but most pastors don’t have the imagination or the nerve to motivate their congregations to tithe. Have you seen the Mark Driscoll video where he yells at men in the church who are unrepentant in sexual sin? I’d love to see something like that for our money. It’s not that difficult to live on 90% of our income; if it is, we need to cut back in other areas of our life anyways.
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I think giving should be taught with faith and living within your means. Fiscal responsibility is multi-faceted. I think budgeting and needs versus wants and materialism are all topics that are related to tithing, too.
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I was not raised in church. When I finally came to the Lord, I was intent on doing things “right”. At the time, I was a single mother and I made about $350.00 a week. While money was definately tight…it was easy to give $35.00 per week.
When I remarried. Money became even tighter. My new husband was also divorced…which meant a rather large child support payment. I also had to quit my job…I became pregnant much quicker than my doctor expected and I had a high risk pregnancy. At this point we began rationalizing not paying our tithes.
We struggled for years. Our giving was sporadic.
The Lord began to deal with us abut our giving. Not because of a sermon…but through the bible and conviction. We began giving our 10%. Eventually we began given an additional 5% in offering. Now, we give 10%, 5% and also 3% to missions…in addition to various amounts to “special offerings” and a building program.
Since we began being faithful with our tithes we have been blessed abundantly! The saying “you can’t outgive GOD” is NOT a cliche, it is the truth.
As to the amuont being “alot” out of a particular check…or in relation to our income…my husbands company went public a few years ago. He had stock options and we tithed on the income we made. It was a substantial amount of money. Let me tell you, it was the most GRATIFYING thing to write that check. I wrote with THANKSGIVING and JOY! We could have done ALOT with that amount…but God can do so much more with it.
As to not agreeing with how the church spends it/uses it…this is the way we look at it. God judges us on our obedience to His word…on whether or not we give it. He will judge our Pastor and/or leaders on how they spend it. The only thing I need to concern myself with is MY obedience. They are responsible for their obedience.
To me it is no different than when I give mney to a homeless person or someone on the side of the road holding a sign. MY intention is that they buy a hot meal or a cup of coffee…if they choose to buy alchohol or cigarettes, that is on them.
Sorry for the dissertation on tithing
I am a tithe overcomer and my hope is that all disciples of Christ could know the Joy of following the principle.
I enjoy your blog immensely. It challenges, convicts, encourages and inspires me. Thank you.
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It is so timely that you wrote about this as my husband and I have been struggling with this. We agree that the right thing to do is pay 10% however, we are torn between doing that and paying down our debt. Your blog made it very clear to me what we should be doing even though it is hard. Thank you.
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In my church (I am a convert to the LDS church) we make no excuses for the law of tithing. If you don’t tithe, you are not temple-worthy. Period. You are right, God does not need our money, but He needs our will, our submission, our charity for others, and our faith.
You, Ryan have amazing, great faith! I wish I knew you in person!
Also, a friend going to a prayer house called IHOP in Kansas City (definitely NOT LDS) told me that a pastor once told her group, “if you find yourself continually praying for someone, you need to be prepared to be part of the answer!”
That was an epiphany for me! Although struggling frequently (my husband with a BS in engineering has a 12$/hour factory job), I have NEVER regretting someone who truly needed my help.
Wonderful topic.
Godspeed and GET RID OF THAT MRSA!
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I believe in tithing and we give in addition. It’s been a habit. Have you ever read the Autobiography of George Meuller? He had an amazing faith when it came to finances. Not that we all need to deal with things as he did, but it’s very thought provoking and a good read.
Praying for your infection and for your wife and the new baby that’s on the way!
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I keep giving despite the economy. And I love love love this shot of your sanctuary. It’s the best Vineyard building I’ve visited, bar none.
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Hi Ryan. I will be praying for your church and ownership of it soon! I 100% believe in tithing but find myself skipping sometimes. I NEED to be giving my tithes every last penny and more. But I don’t. But I’m gonna start.
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Cop-out, cop-out, cop-out. I can’t see how not financially supporting “your church” could be pleasing to God. Yea, I know, you give time instead. Time hurts a lot less than cold hard cash. I know, I give time and lots of it. I’ve had weeks where I’ve given 20+ hours. It’s not an either or thing though. I don’t think this is a theological debate but a condition of the heart. It’s easy to walk with your right hand guarding your back pocket.
For those who do enjoy theology, the new testament church almost always gave more than 10%, try 90% more. Just a thought.
As a side note, VWS is not all about the money. If you read this post and think that’s the case than your very much mistaken.
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I too “met” you through the Pioneer Woman. I have learned by experience that I never have enough money if I am not obedient in tithing. I say a prayer of thanks when I write my tithe check, and I also give to support several Christian ministries. Could I spend that money in other (selfish) ways? Absolutely! But I don’t pine after one penny of it, and am grateful to God for the opportunity to serve Him in that way.
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We give because we love God….the old testament gave an amount cause those folks and that culture was about rules…but the new testament provided a way to have a love and grace relationship that covered everything we needed to live a victorious life: salvation, healing, provision, love, grace etc. When we truly experience that intimate connection with God, Jesus and the HOly Spirit, we WANT to give to back to God, to support His workers and His ideas (church workers, missions, orphans, widows etc.) It’s not an issue and we’re happy to do it, even more than 10%. It’s about trust….do we really trust God? To provide, to heal, to have our best interest at heart? I know it sounds simplistic, but guess what? The gospel is. We humans muck it up. So, do we really trust God, for everything? Or just somethings? It’s a process, but the more we fall in love with Him, the more sin drops off our being (selfishness, lack of faith, fear, etc.)
How do we get there? Ask God to give you more faith, everyday, to help you trust Him for everything you need. Watch for the sneaky ways He provides (and they are, cause we limit Him and often miss the opportunity to see Him move on our behalf)and challenge God to prove to you He is Who He says He is. He loves that game!
Grace and peace to everyone on the journey….God loves us!
Debra
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I am blessed to have a pastor here in Montana that believes giving is an act of worship and he preaches on it regularly. I have never been in a church that is so open and transparent about its finances. We are currently in the process of raising money to build a pool complex for the community and there is a water tower in the foyer (between the climbing walls) that shows how much has been raised so far. Most of the sermons are on the website http://www.harvestweb.net. Look for the Immerse series. Great teaching on the importance of giving back to God. The other thing I think we forget is that this is something Jesus gave us permission to challenge Him on. Try and see if He doesn’t bless you.
Thanks for all you are doing for the Kingdom. God Bless.
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When we were stationed at Ft Bragg our pastor there (Manna Church, Fayetteville NC) did a sermon about how your tithe money is God’s money. He went back to the original Hebrew and found that at some point in the Bible it says that if you keep God’s money it will be under a curse and whatever you use it for will come to no good. I’m probably getting the details all wrong, but it was a very inspiring sermon about tithing. A lot of his sermons are on iTunes he may have it over there although it’s been years.
Anyway, we tithe 10% off the top as soon as we get paid and have for years, even before we heard that sermon.
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I believe that tithing to the local church you attend is a practice of obedience. I mean it’s 10% of our earnings. But the other 90% we still need to be accountable for. Every blessing we have, whether monetary, tangible or intangible is a gift from God. The other 90% we still have to be good stewards of by managing our money (also a gift/blessing from God) wisely. And we tithe on our gross income not our net income. That means the total money earned before taxes are taken out. Because frankly, we’d rather have gross blessings than net blessings.
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Hey Pastor Ryan, I’ve been following your site for several weeks now and I really enjoy your honesty in sharing the joys and hardships of trying to live out your faith. Tithing/giving is a concept I’ve struggled with over the years. I grew up really poor, and when I became an adult, holding on to money was a naturally ingrained habit. I was always afraid of not having enough. Having both succeeded and failed in my desires to give, what my experience has taught me was that when I was being faithful to give, I was always able to meet my needs. When I wasn’t giving (regardless of the amount of my paycheck), I never had enough money. God has helped me to see, that it’s really his provision that makes the difference. I’ve learned even more over the last several months as I lost my job and was denied unemployment benefits, but God has kept on giving and it’s given me the courage to keep tithing the small income I do bring in. I know full-time ministry is so very challenging. I look forward to hearing more of how God provides as you keep believing. I pray you will be showered with blessings. Thanks for your encouragement and teaching on this site.
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I was raised by tithers, & always felt it was the ‘right’ thing to do. It took time, though, for me not to sometimes begrudge what I “gave away.” Thankfully I grew through that, & now it is just a grateful act every payday – one way (my husband &) I thank God for his many blessings.
A twist is that I, too, am full-time staff at a church, & though solid middle class income, my husband & I are in the top % of givers – only because we tithe & do it consistently. I agree that God doesn’t need our money to do great things, but I do believe he blesses our generosity. Not in the “he’ll give you everything you want” way, but just in the day to day “I’m with you & will care for you” way.
We consider our 10% our tithe (to our home congregation), & anything above our “offering.” Like when hubby gets a bonus, or we get a tax return – we give 10% of those as offerings & choose a cause that is important to us at the time – something that doesn’t always fit into our regular giving. It was great when our kids were growing up – they’d often be a part in choosing where these “offerings” would go – great fun!
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We’ve always tithed as a way of showing God we trusted Him to provide and to recognize what we have is from Him. I think if people made it personal like that and not that they are giving it to the church, they wouldn’t hold back. I NEVER GIVE MONEY TO THE CHURCH. I tithe, AT CHURCH, as a way of showing God I continue to trust and obey.
People don’t like to talk abouth tithing but if it’s in the Bible, I say talk about it. People need to understand God’s view on it and keep it in mind ALWAYS!
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This is my first post ever to a site but I couldn’t resist. My church just finished a series on the The Blessed Life by Robert Morris. There was a videao with a companion book. It was so awesome and you just begin to understand why it is so important to tithe. Here is his website. Perhaps there are some ideas you can share with your church.
blessings to you and your family
http://theblessedlife.com/
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Money Money Money…isn’t that what drives this culture? my husband and i have come from the brink of ruin because of it…and only because of God are we still standing.
never in the Bible does Jesus talk about God hating anything more than greedy people. so that gets me thinking. the best way to combat greed, is to give. and you’re right. God most certainly doesn’t need our money. He doesn’t need anything we have. but we most certainly need to be a part of what He’s doing. and you know? after my husband and i implemented a plan to give, and give more, and more, did we begin to see blessings flow into our lives that we had no explaination for. when God sees his children willing to give…i fully believe he sends resources their way. God’s aware of the circumstances we’re in…but He didn’t say, “obey, but only when you think it’s easy.” He just said, “Follow.”
And it goes past that tithe to church. i’ve been most blessed when we’ve fed friends who had no food. and sent money we had to scrape together to a family who couldn’t pay a bill. kinda like the first church in Acts. wouldn’t we be a peculiar people to the rest of the world if we helped each other like that?
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Wow, so many differed opinions. I am going the “it’s not our money” route. I really believe that ALL we have is for our use and benefit, but it is not ours. It is His. If the mentality were this through out the church, then maybe, just maybe we would have more then just 10% from 10% of the people.
Ryan, as you probably know your congregation is so not alone in this. We are all struggling, daily in some form or another financially. We are focusing way too much on how we are going to find the next dollar or if our customers (parishioners) are going to pay what they owe. All we can do is educate and allow God to work.
I love this little ministry on the internet that you have built. Thank you so very much for your little words of encouragement as we live a little of your life through these mini stories.
Trust, faith and perseverance… I know you have heard it and are living it. Keep it up and keep looking up.
Thank God for you!
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Well Obviously a lot of posters are tithers-and good for them. Let me take a different view-and be kind please-many of you noted how God provides their tithes. Well God has provided us with a wonderful daughter with a hugely expensive chronic illness. yes we have good insurance but it doesnt cover everything. My husband works 2 jobs and at times 3, and the stress of working that hard caused his heart to stop-lierally, so now he has heart issues too. I worked part time at a christian school and was let go because i “spent too much time at the hospital”. My daughter was hospitalized for numerous surgeries last year. I am unemployed and God hasnt provided a job yet. The church we were in for over 10 years has helped with a total of 9 meals in 7 years. yes they have given some money too that we aree thankful for but in such small amounts that we ar still deeply in debt. It is HURTFUL though when people in my own life mouth to me out of their plenty that God has provided and proudly tell of their giving a tithe when clearly my family suffers. Somehow THAT does not seem scriptural. So my response about the building is this-take care of your people first and then then building will follow-God WILL provide but not until your-GODS people are taken of.
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Financial donations are a bummer, they just are. Every freakin’ time.
I go through with them because I’ve forced myself to view mine the same way you view yours: That $ isn’t mine in the first place – it belongs to God/charity.
And when I’m seriously annoyed by thinking of my hard-earned $ going into a bank account that isn’t mine, I (unwillingly, eh-he) ponder the millions of people who have way less than I do, and that train of thought, usually, kinda helps with some perspective.
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Psalm 37:25
“I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging for bread.”
Maybe if we were more like the early church and didn’t have buildings and budgets, we could forgo the whole tithing thing. The evolution of the tradition is an interesting one, to be sure. Without digging into why we do the 10% thing, I just have seen in my life that God blesses us when we give back a portion of what we have given to him, even if you give when it means there will be hardly anything left. Early in our marriage we were really poor, but I kept tithing. Weird things would happen, like getting old reimbursement checks, finding forgotten wedding cards with money or gift cards in them, etc. I have also found that the times I worry and hold onto my money are the times when I become even more worried and afraid. The exercise of tithing is one of trust and obedience, and you WILL see God’s blessings as a result.
I must admit to forgetting my checkbook and excuses of that nature. Your post inspired me to get out my checkbook and prepare my tithe right away so I would be ready on Sunday. The times when I forget to put my checkbook into my Sunday purse are times that reveal what is ruling my heart, and it’s humbling to realize that your cute pink clutch has taken precedence over obedience to God. Oops.
All that being said, my husband is a pastor at our church, and sometimes I feel weird giving money to his “employer,” as it were. I also can get caught up in a little bit of anger over people who are equipped to give plentifully but don’t. That usually subsides very quickly- I am NOT to judge others- but it’s still an issue. I really wonder what our per-person giving would be if we calculated it out like you did for your church, and I wish our pastor would talk about it at greater depth sometime, especially in light of the current economy.
I also wonder: would giving increase if we stopped passing the plate, and just put a box in the back or something? Lately the whole tradition of the offering during the church service has been bothering me, like there are a lot of weird social pressure-y things going on; does that make sense? But at the same time, the church needs the money so my family can keep the lights on.
Giving sure is a tricky subject. I wish more people would give more money, not just because it helps our ministries, but because it really helps the giver, too. Giving has enriched my life over the years and it’s a discipline I’m happy to incorporate into my walk.
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My thoughts: It’s impossible to out-give God.
Cathy
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I don’t know how ‘transparent’ the churchs finances are. But if you put up the actual costs of utilities, salaries, etc. it might help people realize what is needed. Our church does this in the bulletin insert. Money collected last week, money spent, anticipated needs. But I do agree that special projects do better, just because there’s the immediate gratifacation of seeing the kids go to mission camp, new roof, etc. How about a special project of seeing how frugally your parishoners could live for the next month..
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One of my former bosses, who dealt with financial services always was saying:
We must separate our wants from our needs.
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Tithing is always such a hot topic. My pastors (also Vineyard) have had a hard time “asking” for money, ie preaching on tithing. Tithing totally is biblical, historical, and the 10% is also defined as the “King’s share.”
There are lots of NT vs OT, new covenant, not bound by old law arguments that can be made regarding the 10% thing. (Not by me, but I’ve heard them.)
In response to scott’s comment “we, the richest country in the world, can’t afford to tithe.” Actually, we are a very generous nation, by comparison. And that was told to me by a non-native American who pays attention to these sorts of things (professionally).
And there are lots of Michele’s (comment after scott’s) who are not trusting of the church, don’t agree with how the $ is spent, etc. Those are ppl who need ministering to, and maybe they need to find a different church/denomination.
It is a hugely personal thing to put your faith to action in this way. To think about writing a $300 check each month makes my chest pull tight. (THough, I don’t have to yet as my husband is not in total agreement about the 10% thing.) I certainly know I have it way better than lots of folks around the world, but when your car’s about to die, you rarely buy new clothes, spend so little on entertainment, don’t live in a nice house, just barely cover minimum bils, etc it’s easy to see your own need and put that first. It’s about trusting God – that he will provide, that the seed you sew will be used for His Glory and not wastefully, that it will impact His kingdom.
So the bottom line is, we all need to pray, and ASK the Lord what he would have us give, and to where. After that, it’s His to use, and not ours to complain about. You would think it rude if your boss came and told you all the ways he though you were spending your paycheck wrong, and decided to dock your pay. If you prayerfully give, then let it go. For those who don’t give, we need to be ministering to and helping them grow in their walk with Jesus, because there is probably some hurt or something there.
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And I just realized that should be spelled sow. Oops.
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I must say this is an area that God is beginning to redefine in my life. My husband and I grew up in church and for the first time in our lives have felt led to step away from the institutional church. Yes, that’s right we stay home Sunday morning…it’s been an amazing experience. God has us in season where I feel Him asking me “Am I enough?” Aside from from everything else “Am I enough?” This has put me in place of just being…being who God created me to be and I feel more a part of the church than I ever have. As I have set aside all programs and perceived expectations I had for myself or thought God had for me, it has freed me to begin to understand the very nature of God. I’m starting to understand His love, His heart…and in regards to tithe, His generosity more than ever. Allowing my generosity to be an outpouring of my Father’s generosity completely overshadows what “tithing” ever was for me. Tithing for me was usually out of obligation or a fear of not being blessed. My desire now is to know my Father’s heart above all else…and it is exciting for me to see where that may lead.
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I wrestled with this for a long time many years ago as a struggling single mom. This is about our obedience, faith, and trust in God. He tells us “first fruits”… not seconds, thirds, or leftovers.
If you don’t trust how your church is spending the money- that’s your opportunity to step up and get involved, and see first hand where it goes. Problems still..? Then you are at the wrong church.
Because one worships in a church doesn’t mean that by sheer act of you gracing the doors every week that your seat will be pre-paid by God. Like any place, there are operating costs- lights, heat, air conditioning, crafts for the kids, hymnals to sing from, and a benevolence fund… you know, the one you ask for help from when you need food or a little extra to make up for the rent- that all comes from our tithe!
We all need to only be concerned what we give, and not base our giving, or lack thereof, on what the neighbors are doing.
If you truly trust and put your faith in Him, there would be no question on tithing.
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The old adage being sadly true 20% give more than 80%.
How to challenge those to give, how to be faithful, even when struggling.
Whatever we have is not ours, it is not ours, we are stewards.
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I know that the tithe is the Lord’s and it has been 10% (or more) since before Moses and the law. Abraham gave 10%, so it is a principle not a law.
I give minimum 10% and have for the last 10 plus years. Offerings are above that. God provides for my every need.
As for the church, I would not presume to tell a pastor how to lead his church. I only know that my pastor has taught us what the rewards of obedience to God’s word are — in all areas, not just financial.
You have an amazing church, I know it is where it is supposed to be.
Blessings to all of you!
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Prayer and obedience… but I’m a backslider on both so I don’t know how much weight my answer holds. I know both are partial reasons I haven’t been in a church in over three years. I feel empty because of it, but when you can’t afford the gas it takes to fuel your car to get there, or the tithing, and you don’t have the time to witness or be a missionary, you feel your place with God is lost. I commend you and your wife for giving so much and, although it is hard, if you’re still able, continue to do so.
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I’m a single mom that works hard to be a good steward of what I have and I expect my church to do the same. Their calling is just as difficult or more so than mine. When I give my money and it is wasted? I don’t want to give tithe anymore; I’ll send it to a mission or spend it myself on someone who has need or on something that I know is effective in bringing change and opportunity. I like giving to my church that I go to now… it is a modern and upbeat place but they are very careful stewards of our gifts.
What we THINK we need here in America has grown to magnanimous proportions. God takes care of my family’s basics, he always always always does; sometimes miraculously, often unexplained – but I don’t have an entertainment budget at all, or a junk food budget, or an eating out budget, or a vanity budget, or keep busy with non-essentials while someone else mows the lawn, caulks the shower, etc. budget.
My attitude about money changed the day I realized that I don’t need a toothbrush… LOL!! There are beautiful smiling people all over the world who do not have a toothbrush. I am grateful for my toothbrush…and toothpaste though I don’t need that for my toothbrush to be effective. Lawns are non-essentials but nice because they keep the dust down and the neighbors happy. The list is long once one begins to count…
My thoughts are that we ALL need to be better prioritized b/c Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these… I’m not saying this to chastise anyone, only God knows where anyone is in their sanctification process. This is only the foundation of my philosophy about church and money.
My church in Haiti are about to begin meeting on their own land – in a tent, during the rainy season… it is a self-sufficient church, administered by the locals, supported by local donations, but built by the mission. Do I need a cushy seat when they don’t yet have a foundation to protect their feet? Everybody wears their best to church. Our donations give rice to the churchgoing families and the schoolchildren… they worship with gusto, the men dance a little; they preach like there is no tomorrow.
Someone may criticize me saying that our paradigm for money here is different than their paradigm for life and its cost there, to which I say true, but we benefit hugely from a global economy and I believe we’ll be held responsible for the effects of it too – the benefit shouldn’t be in one direction, we shouldn’t benefit without thinking about where it comes from.
how’s that for a post within a post? Sorry, DetzelPretzel. I wish i were better at being succinct but still making the point. A poet I am not…
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Like you my husband and I have always felt led to give as God directs us and many times it is above 10%. Yet I have found that the remaining 70-90% manages to go so much further than the 100% would if we chose not to rely on God. As you said, God doesn’t need our money but we need Him and by giving to Him I find it requires us to trust Him more. He is amazingly faithful!
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So here is something to ponder, why do you need a church building anyway? Why can’t you split the church up into a bunch of house churches? Why do pastors need salaries? Paul didn’t, he received money but he never expected it or asked for it. He worked with his hands for it. We used to be paid staff at a church. We have been set free:) Sorry, this is not meant to be critical. Have you read Pagan Christianity or REVOLUTION?
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Tithing is an act of worship. When you place that tithe in the offering plate, you are worshiping the Lord God with what he gave you. WHen you get a handle on tithing and actually do it with a cheerful heart, your life changes. The Bible says he will take care of our needs and when you tithe, your needs are met. I have met so many church going people, who can’t pay their bills, have several fancy cars, a big house, etc. Where are their priorities? We need to take a step back, and ask ourselves, “Do I really NEED this?” So many are stealing from God and the church.
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The obligation to tithe (give 10% of one’s gross income) was only ever binding on the Jews. Jesus fulfilled this Old Law (cf. Mt 5:17) so even Jews are no longer bound by it. But this doesn’t mean we’re not obligated to support our Churches – we are – there is just no longer a specific percentage required.
Scripture provides insight on how Christians should give: “On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income” (1 Cor 16:2).
Also, “Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor 9:6-7).
So, there is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift.
From: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=62454
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I know that a lot of people complain about being told that they should tithe. “Because the mandate to tithe was for the Old Testament Israelites.” But my husband and I feel very strongly that if we can’t give 10% with a happy, grateful heart, then our priorities are way out of whack.
If it’s even hard to let go of that, then what are we going to do when He asks us to give $100 to a friend to help pay their self-employment taxes (above and beyond our tithe) or give to someone who just lost a husband or any other scenario He’s put on our hearts over the past few years?
Our money will ruin us if we let it. I believe that tithing (and giving above and beyond when we feel God leading us to) is God’s way of helping us to remember Whose money it is. And the blessing of knowing that we’re helping to support our church and seeing how God allows us to be used in blessing others brings such joy! It’s our prayer that we will be able to give more and more as we receive more.
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Firstly, I must state the fact that tithing was never intended for Gentiles (you & I, if you are not Jewish).
Secondly, I must also state the fact that tithing was never intended for the Christian, whether they be Jew or Gentile. Now, that that is settled, let us examine the issue.
There are those who argue that tithing is relevant today because it was never part of the Law.
For those who believe tithing pre-dated the Law, the fact that tithing preceded the Law (Gen 14:20 reads Abraham gave a pre-law tithe to Melchizedek) does not mean it is apart from the Law.
Because…
The practice of tithing was eventually codified into the Mosaic Law (see Numbers 18:21, Deuteronomy 14:22-23, Deuteronomy 14:28-29, and Deuteronomy 26:12). Some Christians ignore, or are ignorant of this fact and wrongfully use the example of Abraham’s pre-Law tithes to infer a requirement for Christian tithing. However, Abraham also offered pre-Law animal sacrifices. It is evident by Isaac’s question (“Where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”) in Genesis 22:7 that there were pre-Law animal sacrifices.
That goes to say, Christians who cite Abraham’s pre-Law tithe as their basis for Christian tithing must also cite, and abide by, Abraham’s pre-Law animal sacrifices in order to remain consistent in their doctrinal approach.
The same could be argued for circumcision, another pre-Law practice of Abraham, and clearly not required of Gentiles. One simply cannot indiscriminately pick and choose which of Abraham’s actions are still valid today. One must either embrace all of them or none of them!
In regards to Jesus’ instruction to the Pharisees about tithing, Matthew 23:23 (see also Luke 11:42) reads: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.” Some Christians offer this as proof text that Jesus taught tithing. However, Scripture must always be understood in its context.
To properly understand Matthew 23:23, one must understand the context of to whom Jesus was speaking. He was not speaking to Christians, but instead to non-Christian Jews. Such Jews were obligated to obey the entire Mosaic Law, and thus required to tithe, as Jesus correctly pointed out.
In this Scripture, Jesus used tithing as an example of the Law that these hypocritical Jewish leaders were faithful to keep, while neglecting the underlying principles of the Law. He could have chosen a different example of the Law, such as, “…you faithfully sacrifice the required burnt offerings. But you have neglected the more important matters of the Law…” and the meaning of this passage would have been the same. In any case, His words were never directed toward (or intended for) Christians, or Gentiles for that matter.
In regards to financial giving. Scripture is clear that “those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.” if they so desire to embrace that right, in which the Apostle Paul waived. (1 Cor 9:14-15)
Therefore, if we do belong to a church (other than a home church) we are expected to financially support its pastor. The pastor should not be expected to support himself with outside work. In addition, if one’s church owns a building, then the members of that local church have an expectation to help maintain that property. What’s more, local churches have many other ongoing financial needs (utilities, printing costs, etc.). Para-church ministries might also be considered for one’s financial giving. Of course, missions and the needy (Red Cross, for example) should also be considered.
In summary, “You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.” (2 Cor 9:7)
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